Transcript of the BBC Radio 4 Today Programme, 15 July 2009: Interview with Ed Miliband on the UK's low carbon transition plan
Edward Stourton, presenter: The Government has committed Britain to cut carbon emissions by 34% by 2020, and by 80% by 2050. Today it will tell us how it plans to achieve those targets. A little earlier I spoke to the Environment Secretary, Ed Miliband, and asked him about the Government’s plans.
Ed Miliband, Energy & Climate Change Secretary: All we’re trying to do is to set out not simply targets for 2020, which have been set, but a route map to get there: how are we going to take the carbon dioxide out of the way we travel, the… our homes, and the way we provide energy. And also we’re arguing that it’s right to make these changes in our economy – which are big changes – on grounds of energy security, because it will make us more secure to have more home-grown, low-carbon energy, and it will be good for employment as well, because we think there is a big green jobs opportunity in making the right investments in the future.
Edward Stourton: I’ll talk about the green jobs opportunities, as you put it, in a moment. But, in broad terms, how detailed will you be, and does it make sense to plot a road map that takes us quite so far into the future?
Ed Miliband: It does seem a long way off – you’re right. But I think that when you’re talking about energy investment, and when you’re talking about the kind of transition we have to make, not just in renewable energy and the wind turbines that we need to have, both offshore and onshore, but nuclear power, clean coal technology, these are very big changes… not to speak of the changes we’re going to need in people’s homes and the drive for energy efficiency…these are very big changes which require action by Government. They also require action by individuals. So I think… and I think what people want, whether it’s people in industry, members of the public and others, is a route map, and that’s what we’re going to try and provide today.
Edward Stourton: All right. What about jobs, since you mention that area? We’ve had all sorts of figures quoted. Gordon Brown at one stage talked about creating a modern manufacturing and service economy of one million new jobs; we had 400,000 green jobs mentioned earlier this year, earlier this summer; and at one stage 100,000 new jobs. Can you put a figure on the number of jobs you think you can create?
Ed Miliband: Well, we think that the environmental industries in Britain can generate about an extra 400,000 jobs by 2015. I think the precise numbers are one thing. I think how do we do it is the real question. And I think partly how we do it is we make the right investments as a country. Alistair Darling set aside some money in the Budget for encouraging the green industries of the future to come and locate in Britain. I think that what’s happened in the past is we’ve tended to be good at generating some of the low-carbon energy, but not so good at getting industries to locate here. We think we need to make a set of decisions to make that happen. We think there are big, big opportunities. And actually I think it’s what… something people want to hear, which is what is the post-recession economy going to look like and where are the jobs going to come from? And we know the world is switching to low carbon, and Britain needs to be at the forefront of that.
Edward Stourton: But you’re confident putting a figure on it like that, are you?
Ed Miliband: Well, yes. I mean, there are all… there’s a whole range of environmental industries, from waste to recycling, to low carbon. And we think there’s going to be big growth in them, and we think Government can help that on its way.
Edward Stourton: A certain irony, isn’t there, in saying that, just as it appears that Britain’s one wind turbine manufacturer says that it’s closing down its production, or is expected to do so.
Ed Miliband: Sure. But the Vestas plant in the Isle of Wight has never made wind turbines for Britain; it’s made them for America, and it now has factories in America which do that. The…
Edward Stourton: Yeah, but the reason… one of the reasons it says that has happened is because the planning laws in this country make it very difficult…
Ed Miliband: Well, it is…
Edward Stourton: …to create turbine power here.
Ed Miliband: Good point, good point, Ed. Here’s the thing, though, on planning – and I do want to say something about this. We are changing the planning laws, but we also have a job of political persuasion to do, because we all know, from our own local experiences, that people have significant concerns about wind turbines being put up in different areas. Now, we can have a lot of offshore wind turbines, but I’m being completely honest with you when I say we also need a lot more onshore wind turbines as well, and that’s difficult. And part of my job, including today, is to persuade people that the biggest threat to the countryside are not wind turbines – of course there can be local objections that are legitimate – but the biggest threat to the countryside is climate change, because Britain’s beautiful countryside will be destroyed if we don’t stop dangerous climate change. And that is what we’re doing today. But I’ll be honest with you – that requires a big job of political persuasion with people.
Edward Stourton: Which, I suppose, takes us back to the point at which we began this interview. You’re laying out this route map, as you put it. You say that it makes sense to be reasonably precise, even though we’re talking about a very long timeframe, and yet on this one area that we’ve talked about specifically, you recognise that there are all sorts of political imponderables.
Ed Miliband: I’m not sure that they’re imponderables. I suppose I’m being very clear that we have a… we have a set of commitments that I’m going to be laying out today, and we’ve got to try and meet them. But it’s always the case that targets and plans are important, but politics will define whether we meet them or not. And I suppose part of my job and part of the whole job… job of the whole Government is to show that actually this is a threat that we need to live up to, and that there are also opportunities for people. Because there are costs – I’ve been quite honest that there are going to be costs of making this transition – and, you know, part of the art and the job of politics is to persuade people to make some difficult decisions. That’s what we’re going to try and do.
Edward Stourton: Well, let’s… but to be clear about the politics of this, you are going to have to stand up and tell people who are already struggling, because of the recession and all the other things associated with that, that they are going to have to pay more for their energy for your plans.
Ed Miliband: Well, looking forward to 2020, yes, it’s not about costs now, and we’re going to minimise those costs as much as possible. But it is true, there isn’t a low-cost energy future out there; there’s a high-carbon, high-cost future, in my view, because we see big growth in demand from China and India which will drive up gas and oil prices, and we can be more and more dependent on that and quite insecure on our energy, or we can go for more home-grown energy, which will also cost, but I actually think the cost will be less in the end of making that choice, because we know also that the costs of climate change, if we don’t stop it, are going to be enormous as well. So I think it’s the right thing to do, and we’ve got to plan for it and make it as fair as we can.
Edward Stourton: Ed Miliband, very many thanks.